#41 From: "Perry Werneck" <perry.werneck@...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:03 am
Subject: Re: So what's the plan?... perrywerneck
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:32:44 -0500, Stepan Kazakov wrote:
Hi,
>only API for drivers & ring3 apps must be the same, for compatibility issues..
A new driver structure could be usefull.
>also the problem will be in Dos support (anybody need it? )
I don't think DOS support is really necessary nowadays.
Part 2 - Feb 19 2002
Re: Part 2
#42 From: "ltning99" <ltning@...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:08 am
Subject: My take on this.. ltning99
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Hi everyone!
I do not want to be flamed for this post, as I honestly don't think
there is any flame-attracting material in it. However some people
might see it differently; please keep your fingers off the triggers
and post calmly.
I have downloaded and run this so-called OS/2-clone. There are a
number of things that indicate that this is based on the leaked
sources:
- Everything is simply too similiar. How can someone who claims to be
'cleanroom-developing' this be able to match every little detail from
Warp4 so absolutely and 100%? As an example - How come Daniela
Engert's IDE driver works without problems, how come I can randomly
replace files in osFree with files from Warp4 without anything
breaking? How come I can use a osFree disk to boot, a Warp4 disk as
disk 1 and the osFree disk 2 after that again? Or perhaps in a
different order? How come even text that shows up 'centered' on the
screen shows up in EXACTLY the same position in this version as it
does in Warp4 and MCP and eCS ...?
BECAUSE THE SOURCE CODE IS THE SAME!
- If these developers had really done this from scratch, it would have
taken ages and ages to get it to where it is now. And noone with their
brains in working order would spend that time making a perfect
'clone', they would spend that time doing something better - an OS/2
compatible next-generation kernel/OS. First it would probably be
easier, and second one could get rid of all the problems and
annoyances with the current kernels.
- The leaked sources have been compiled before, so it's proven it's
doable and not _overly_ difficult. Sure it's a challenge, but an
experienced system and OS/2 programmer could do it in relatively short
time.
- What was the point distributing diskette images with installation
packages (disk3 and disk4) when there is no installation program?
Those are just some indications as to where all this comes from. And
to comment a bit on the other 'threads' going here:
- This is definitely 100% illegal. It's not 'kind of illegal' or
'maybe illegal' it's ILLEGAL in every possible sense of the word.
'Leaked' source is, for all intents and purposes, the same as 'stolen'
source, and use of 'leaked' or 'stolen' sources fall under the same
category - it's illegal.
- This is immoral. I can't even imagine how anyone can actually
endorse this effort only because IBM is neglecting OS/2! IBM created
OS/2, it's their (intellectual) property, and they have the RIGHT to
do with it whatever they want. You can disagree with it as much as you
want, but that does NOT make it OK to disregard their rights! Rules
are there for a reason - if you should start leaving it up to each on
his/her own to decide if they want to follow a rule or not, we'd end
up in total anarchy and chaos - and our world would become a
battlefield of immense proportions. And since when did one persons
crime justify anothers?
- This is a totally futile attempt. No business in the world would
ever be able to back up this project with funding or manpower or
anything. No business could ever use this product no matter how far it
comes - simply because of the legal issues involved. And name ONE
operating system has come ANYWHERE without support from the industry??
Linux? *BSD? BeOS? Others? Come on, think about it.
A number of people have the leaked sources, including myself. I have
never used those sources for anything productive, they are sitting on
some CD here somewhere as a curiousity only, and that's how it will
stay. It may sound like double-play to say what I've said above and
still have these sources in my possession, but to anyone who wants to
go down that road: There is a difference between that and releasing a
product based on them, claiming it to be your own.
Best regards to all,
-Eirik
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:08 am
Subject: My take on this.. ltning99
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Hi everyone!
I do not want to be flamed for this post, as I honestly don't think
there is any flame-attracting material in it. However some people
might see it differently; please keep your fingers off the triggers
and post calmly.
I have downloaded and run this so-called OS/2-clone. There are a
number of things that indicate that this is based on the leaked
sources:
- Everything is simply too similiar. How can someone who claims to be
'cleanroom-developing' this be able to match every little detail from
Warp4 so absolutely and 100%? As an example - How come Daniela
Engert's IDE driver works without problems, how come I can randomly
replace files in osFree with files from Warp4 without anything
breaking? How come I can use a osFree disk to boot, a Warp4 disk as
disk 1 and the osFree disk 2 after that again? Or perhaps in a
different order? How come even text that shows up 'centered' on the
screen shows up in EXACTLY the same position in this version as it
does in Warp4 and MCP and eCS ...?
BECAUSE THE SOURCE CODE IS THE SAME!
- If these developers had really done this from scratch, it would have
taken ages and ages to get it to where it is now. And noone with their
brains in working order would spend that time making a perfect
'clone', they would spend that time doing something better - an OS/2
compatible next-generation kernel/OS. First it would probably be
easier, and second one could get rid of all the problems and
annoyances with the current kernels.
- The leaked sources have been compiled before, so it's proven it's
doable and not _overly_ difficult. Sure it's a challenge, but an
experienced system and OS/2 programmer could do it in relatively short
time.
- What was the point distributing diskette images with installation
packages (disk3 and disk4) when there is no installation program?
Those are just some indications as to where all this comes from. And
to comment a bit on the other 'threads' going here:
- This is definitely 100% illegal. It's not 'kind of illegal' or
'maybe illegal' it's ILLEGAL in every possible sense of the word.
'Leaked' source is, for all intents and purposes, the same as 'stolen'
source, and use of 'leaked' or 'stolen' sources fall under the same
category - it's illegal.
- This is immoral. I can't even imagine how anyone can actually
endorse this effort only because IBM is neglecting OS/2! IBM created
OS/2, it's their (intellectual) property, and they have the RIGHT to
do with it whatever they want. You can disagree with it as much as you
want, but that does NOT make it OK to disregard their rights! Rules
are there for a reason - if you should start leaving it up to each on
his/her own to decide if they want to follow a rule or not, we'd end
up in total anarchy and chaos - and our world would become a
battlefield of immense proportions. And since when did one persons
crime justify anothers?
- This is a totally futile attempt. No business in the world would
ever be able to back up this project with funding or manpower or
anything. No business could ever use this product no matter how far it
comes - simply because of the legal issues involved. And name ONE
operating system has come ANYWHERE without support from the industry??
Linux? *BSD? BeOS? Others? Come on, think about it.
A number of people have the leaked sources, including myself. I have
never used those sources for anything productive, they are sitting on
some CD here somewhere as a curiousity only, and that's how it will
stay. It may sound like double-play to say what I've said above and
still have these sources in my possession, but to anyone who wants to
go down that road: There is a difference between that and releasing a
product based on them, claiming it to be your own.
Best regards to all,
-Eirik
Re: Part 2
#43 From: "ltning99" <ltning@...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:12 am
Subject: Re: My take on this.. ltning99
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Oh and I forgot to mention..
Why are there IBM copyright messages all over the place? I mean
_everywhere_...
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:12 am
Subject: Re: My take on this.. ltning99
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Oh and I forgot to mention..
Why are there IBM copyright messages all over the place? I mean
_everywhere_...
Re: Part 2
#44 From: "Michal Necasek" <michaln@...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:16 am
Subject: Re: So what's the plan?... michalnec
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:32:44 -0500, Stepan Kazakov wrote:
>anyway: os2 kernel must be redesigned and totally rewritten, and all
>internal 16bit OLD *censor* stuff must be removed..
>
That's BS. You speak like a religious fanatic. I don't care if something
is 16-bit, I care if it WORKS.
With this logic you'd have to say "Linux? Unix? Built on 20+ year old
technology? Yuck, it must be crap!". Only in real life it doesn't work
that way.
Mind you, the OS/2 kernel could stand some improvement. A lot
in fact. IBM seems deathly afraid of changes (which helped kill
OS/2). But that doesn't mean you should throw out everything.
>only API for drivers & ring3 apps must be the same, for compatibility issues..
>also the problem will be in Dos support (anybody need it? )
>
You're kidding? DOS support is one area where OS/2 is better than
just about anything else and you want to get rid of it?
>and all this a HUGE work.
>i dont think what opensource & enthusiasm may help in this..
>
So what will help?
Michal
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:16 am
Subject: Re: So what's the plan?... michalnec
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:32:44 -0500, Stepan Kazakov wrote:
>anyway: os2 kernel must be redesigned and totally rewritten, and all
>internal 16bit OLD *censor* stuff must be removed..
>
That's BS. You speak like a religious fanatic. I don't care if something
is 16-bit, I care if it WORKS.
With this logic you'd have to say "Linux? Unix? Built on 20+ year old
technology? Yuck, it must be crap!". Only in real life it doesn't work
that way.
Mind you, the OS/2 kernel could stand some improvement. A lot
in fact. IBM seems deathly afraid of changes (which helped kill
OS/2). But that doesn't mean you should throw out everything.
>only API for drivers & ring3 apps must be the same, for compatibility issues..
>also the problem will be in Dos support (anybody need it? )
>
You're kidding? DOS support is one area where OS/2 is better than
just about anything else and you want to get rid of it?
>and all this a HUGE work.
>i dont think what opensource & enthusiasm may help in this..
>
So what will help?
Michal
Re: Part 2
#45 From: Kris Steenhaut <kris.steenhaut@...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:25 am
Subject: Re: where is the crew? krissteenhaut
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Herwig Bauernfeind schreef:
> Hi,
>
> perhaps could someone of the crew bring light into the whole story?
>
> where is the crew? how many?
>
Does it matter?
--
Groeten uit Gent,
Kris
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:25 am
Subject: Re: where is the crew? krissteenhaut
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Herwig Bauernfeind schreef:
> Hi,
>
> perhaps could someone of the crew bring light into the whole story?
>
> where is the crew? how many?
>
Does it matter?
--
Groeten uit Gent,
Kris
Re: Part 2
#46 From: Kris Steenhaut <kris.steenhaut@...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:32 am
Subject: Re: So what's the plan?... krissteenhaut
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Perry Werneck schreef:
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:32:44 -0500, Stepan Kazakov wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> >only API for drivers & ring3 apps must be the same, for compatibility
issues..
>
> A new driver structure could be usefull.
>
> >also the problem will be in Dos support (anybody need it? )
>
> I don't think DOS support is really necessary nowadays.
>
You'd be surprised how much it still is.
--
Groeten uit Gent,
Kris
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:32 am
Subject: Re: So what's the plan?... krissteenhaut
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Perry Werneck schreef:
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:32:44 -0500, Stepan Kazakov wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> >only API for drivers & ring3 apps must be the same, for compatibility
issues..
>
> A new driver structure could be usefull.
>
> >also the problem will be in Dos support (anybody need it? )
>
> I don't think DOS support is really necessary nowadays.
>
You'd be surprised how much it still is.
--
Groeten uit Gent,
Kris
Re: Part 2
#47 From: Stepan Kazakov <madded@...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:52 am
Subject: Re: So what's the plan?... zuko18ru
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Michal Necasek wrote:
> >anyway: os2 kernel must be redesigned and totally rewritten, and all
> >internal 16bit OLD *censor* stuff must be removed..
> That's BS. You speak like a religious fanatic. I don't care if something
> is 16-bit, I care if it WORKS.
MS Windows is WORKS too.
yes, i'm fanatic. fanatic of quality code.
IA64 is incoming, but os/2 still 16bit inside..
> Mind you, the OS/2 kernel could stand some improvement. A lot
> in fact. IBM seems deathly afraid of changes (which helped kill
> OS/2). But that doesn't mean you should throw out everything.
and the main improvment - remove old ugly code, remove most ASM code,
use C and thinks about scalability and portability to non-x86 platformes..
> >only API for drivers & ring3 apps must be the same, for compatibility
issues..
> >also the problem will be in Dos support (anybody need it? )
> You're kidding? DOS support is one area where OS/2 is better than
> just about anything else and you want to get rid of it?
DOS support? this is the future?
how many DOS programs you are using ?
> >and all this a HUGE work.
> >i dont think what opensource & enthusiasm may help in this..
> So what will help?
money, organization, professional programmers working 8h per day..
etc etc.
so, i dont belive in opensource os/2
--
madded. [Red Hot Chili Hackers]
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:52 am
Subject: Re: So what's the plan?... zuko18ru
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Michal Necasek wrote:
> >anyway: os2 kernel must be redesigned and totally rewritten, and all
> >internal 16bit OLD *censor* stuff must be removed..
> That's BS. You speak like a religious fanatic. I don't care if something
> is 16-bit, I care if it WORKS.
MS Windows is WORKS too.
yes, i'm fanatic. fanatic of quality code.
IA64 is incoming, but os/2 still 16bit inside..
> Mind you, the OS/2 kernel could stand some improvement. A lot
> in fact. IBM seems deathly afraid of changes (which helped kill
> OS/2). But that doesn't mean you should throw out everything.
and the main improvment - remove old ugly code, remove most ASM code,
use C and thinks about scalability and portability to non-x86 platformes..
> >only API for drivers & ring3 apps must be the same, for compatibility
issues..
> >also the problem will be in Dos support (anybody need it? )
> You're kidding? DOS support is one area where OS/2 is better than
> just about anything else and you want to get rid of it?
DOS support? this is the future?
how many DOS programs you are using ?
> >and all this a HUGE work.
> >i dont think what opensource & enthusiasm may help in this..
> So what will help?
money, organization, professional programmers working 8h per day..
etc etc.
so, i dont belive in opensource os/2
--
madded. [Red Hot Chili Hackers]
Re: Part 2
#48 From: "JMA" <mail@...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:19 am
Subject: Re: New License mailjmase
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:36:49 +0100, Kris Steenhaut wrote:
>
>opensource with the same qualities as OS/2 (*)
>
>(*) OS2 is a protected trade mark by IBM.
>
>
Sincerely
JMA
Development and Consulting
John Martin , jma@...
==================================
Website: http://www.jma.se/
email: mail@...
Phone: 46-(0)70-6278410
==================================
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:19 am
Subject: Re: New License mailjmase
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:36:49 +0100, Kris Steenhaut wrote:
>
>opensource with the same qualities as OS/2 (*)
>
>(*) OS2 is a protected trade mark by IBM.
>
>
Sincerely
JMA
Development and Consulting
John Martin , jma@...
==================================
Website: http://www.jma.se/
email: mail@...
Phone: 46-(0)70-6278410
==================================
Re: Part 2
#49 From: "Michal Necasek" <michaln@...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:36 am
Subject: Re: So what's the plan?... michalnec
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On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:52:07 -0500, Stepan Kazakov wrote:
>MS Windows is WORKS too.
>
Not only that, MS Windows took over the world.
>IA64 is incoming, but os/2 still 16bit inside..
>
IA64 coming? Where? You know, the PowerPC was coming too.
>and the main improvment - remove old ugly code, remove most ASM code,
>use C and thinks about scalability and portability to non-x86 platformes..
>
Right. I'm with you 100% on this.
>DOS support? this is the future?
>how many DOS programs you are using ?
>
Not many (mostly games) but I'd be very upset if I couldn't use them
anymore.
>> >and all this a HUGE work.
>> >i dont think what opensource & enthusiasm may help in this..
>> So what will help?
>
>money, organization, professional programmers working 8h per day..
>etc etc.
>
Not gonna happen. Of course I'd like to be proven wrong.
>so, i dont belive in opensource os/2
>
OK, guess it's time to bury OS/2 then.
Michal
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:36 am
Subject: Re: So what's the plan?... michalnec
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On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:52:07 -0500, Stepan Kazakov wrote:
>MS Windows is WORKS too.
>
Not only that, MS Windows took over the world.
>IA64 is incoming, but os/2 still 16bit inside..
>
IA64 coming? Where? You know, the PowerPC was coming too.
>and the main improvment - remove old ugly code, remove most ASM code,
>use C and thinks about scalability and portability to non-x86 platformes..
>
Right. I'm with you 100% on this.
>DOS support? this is the future?
>how many DOS programs you are using ?
>
Not many (mostly games) but I'd be very upset if I couldn't use them
anymore.
>> >and all this a HUGE work.
>> >i dont think what opensource & enthusiasm may help in this..
>> So what will help?
>
>money, organization, professional programmers working 8h per day..
>etc etc.
>
Not gonna happen. Of course I'd like to be proven wrong.
>so, i dont belive in opensource os/2
>
OK, guess it's time to bury OS/2 then.
Michal
Re: Part 2
#50 From: "JMA" <mail@...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:25 am
Subject: Re: So what's the plan?... mailjmase
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:59:51 -0000, atomic_frogii wrote:
>All you need is a booting kernel, then you can build whatever you want
>around it that just responds to OS/2's API calls. It doesn't even have
>to look the same or even necessarily behave exactly the same. It just
>needs to do something once it has received a call.
>
>Yes, I am all talk, but maybe people with greater technical skill will
>get ideas from this. I think this is lot of work, but just need to
>slog through it as opposed to more challenging technical details like
>how to build a kernel from scratch.
>
This is what the FreeOS list has debated for years.
I can agree with that a modern microkernel would be nice, so build one
and give it to this group. Ensure you select one that is suitable for
putting a OS/2 compatible layer ontop.
Sorry, but what you say is nothing new and repeating it will not help.
Work is all that will help.
Sincerely
JMA
Development and Consulting
John Martin , jma@...
==================================
Website: http://www.jma.se/
email: mail@...
Phone: 46-(0)70-6278410
==================================
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:25 am
Subject: Re: So what's the plan?... mailjmase
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:59:51 -0000, atomic_frogii wrote:
>All you need is a booting kernel, then you can build whatever you want
>around it that just responds to OS/2's API calls. It doesn't even have
>to look the same or even necessarily behave exactly the same. It just
>needs to do something once it has received a call.
>
>Yes, I am all talk, but maybe people with greater technical skill will
>get ideas from this. I think this is lot of work, but just need to
>slog through it as opposed to more challenging technical details like
>how to build a kernel from scratch.
>
This is what the FreeOS list has debated for years.
I can agree with that a modern microkernel would be nice, so build one
and give it to this group. Ensure you select one that is suitable for
putting a OS/2 compatible layer ontop.
Sorry, but what you say is nothing new and repeating it will not help.
Work is all that will help.
Sincerely
JMA
Development and Consulting
John Martin , jma@...
==================================
Website: http://www.jma.se/
email: mail@...
Phone: 46-(0)70-6278410
==================================