#21 From: "ShadoW" <ShadoW.FmC@...>
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 3:59 pm
Subject: New License shadow_fmc
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Hi,
would it be legal if the developers changed the license
agreement?
Something like:
Only owners of a valid license of OS/2 Warp 4, Server,
... are allowed to use that package.
Then perhaps the development can be legally continued
until every piece of code owned by IBM is replaced by
something free.
Sebastian
Part 1 - Feb 18 2002
Re: Part 1
#22 From: Kris Steenhaut <kris.steenhaut@...>
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: 100% stolen - no doubt! krissteenhaut
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JMA schreef:
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:46:56 -0000, achimha wrote:
>
>
> If your developer has a solution why have I never heard about it ???
>
Quite right!
And talking about stealing, if you throw something away then you can't accuse
anybody then for using it and using it as his property. Rex nullius. I know
"Rex nullius" is quite another matter in Anglo-Saksian countries, but that's
not of our concern.
--
Groeten uit Gent,
Kris
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: 100% stolen - no doubt! krissteenhaut
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JMA schreef:
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:46:56 -0000, achimha wrote:
>
>
> If your developer has a solution why have I never heard about it ???
>
Quite right!
And talking about stealing, if you throw something away then you can't accuse
anybody then for using it and using it as his property. Rex nullius. I know
"Rex nullius" is quite another matter in Anglo-Saksian countries, but that's
not of our concern.
--
Groeten uit Gent,
Kris
Re: Part 1
#23 From: Kris Steenhaut <kris.steenhaut@...>
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: New License krissteenhaut
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ShadoW schreef:
> Hi,
> would it be legal if the developers changed the license
> agreement?
> Something like:
> Only owners of a valid license of OS/2 Warp 4, Server,
> ... are allowed to use that package.
> Then perhaps the development can be legally continued
> until every piece of code owned by IBM is replaced by
> something free.
>
Who says it isn't already?
--
Groeten uit Gent,
Kris
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: New License krissteenhaut
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ShadoW schreef:
> Hi,
> would it be legal if the developers changed the license
> agreement?
> Something like:
> Only owners of a valid license of OS/2 Warp 4, Server,
> ... are allowed to use that package.
> Then perhaps the development can be legally continued
> until every piece of code owned by IBM is replaced by
> something free.
>
Who says it isn't already?
--
Groeten uit Gent,
Kris
Re: Part 1
#24 From: Kris Steenhaut <kris.steenhaut@...>
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:05 pm
Subject: Re: Re: 100% stolen - no doubt! krissteenhaut
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poldi42 schreef:
> other OS/2 projects reputation. I have no prove this is illegal, but
> if it is (as I guess)
If you consider something as illegal you have to prove it too. Thinking and
assuming won't do.
--
Groeten uit Gent,
Kris
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:05 pm
Subject: Re: Re: 100% stolen - no doubt! krissteenhaut
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poldi42 schreef:
> other OS/2 projects reputation. I have no prove this is illegal, but
> if it is (as I guess)
If you consider something as illegal you have to prove it too. Thinking and
assuming won't do.
--
Groeten uit Gent,
Kris
Re: Part 1
#25 From: "JMA" <mail@...>
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:55 pm
Subject: Re: Re: 100% stolen - no doubt! mailjmase
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:06:49 -0000, poldi42 wrote:
>--- In osFree@y..., "JMA" <mail@j...> wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:46:56 -0000, achimha wrote:
>>
>> If IBM can prove that these are stolen from them and tells me that would
>> procecute I will DEFINITLY think twice about supporting this. I
>might have
>> been fooled.
>>
>why have you been approached the first way? AFAIK anybody can upload
>to hobbes, nomatter what continent... what is your role in this, other
>than interest?
>
My initial contact was on a different matter with a person that happend
to be part of the dev. team.
I assume they choose me since I was better at english and was
VERY interested in a OS/2 opensource.
>> >Not looking at the legal aspects, it's also technical nonsense.
>> >OS/2's design is way outdated and its implementation is ugly. If
>> >there are really skilled developers with enthuiasm and time, then it
>> >should be done differently. A developer of ours has worked on a
>> >microkernel architecture with an OS/2 server (and Linux personality)
>> >for research purposes. You should rather go into this direction...
>> >
>> What I want is simply a way to keep using OS/2.
>>
>
>granted. you are not alone on this one.
>
>
>> The question is not if osFree the right way, the question is where are
>> the alternatives ?
>>
>I have to object. taking a active part in this can harm you as well as
>other OS/2 projects reputation. I have no prove this is illegal, but
>if it is (as I guess) and anybody cares enough about it (might not be
>right now) you should double-check your actions. especially if you are
>the author of suggested licenses.
>
It may harm me, yes. And I might be guilty of not wanting to drop OS/2, yes.
But other OS/2 projects, well if I removed OS/2 from my machine tomorrow
and unsubscribed from a few "nerd" groups I would never again hear the
name again - in my life !
So what "threat" would I be to OS/2 projects. To be quite frank 99.9% of
all computer users dont know what OS/2 is and 99% of the "computer buffs"
knows it was something that died many years ago. The other existing OS/2
project people could just treat me like TM.
Even if someone stole the whole current OS/2 source and released it on
public sites - who would care ?
Yes, it would be illegal, but 99.99% of all computer users would say:
"so what, what would anyone want this OStoo thingie for".
Sorry for ranting
Yes, osFree could be a pure ripoff of IBM's copyrighted work, and stealing
is no good. And dont want to say "what options do we have", but I will say
If some things not quite legal is needed to get us where we want to go, may
it not be worth it ?
Btw: for me the jury is out, some people say its a definite steal of IBM
property while other say no. Both side are equally sure and I dont want
to discuss this since it will not take anything forward.
I just want something to happen !
Is that illegal ??
Sincerely
JMA
Development and Consulting
John Martin , jma@...
==================================
Website: http://www.jma.se/
email: mail@...
Phone: 46-(0)70-6278410
==================================
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:55 pm
Subject: Re: Re: 100% stolen - no doubt! mailjmase
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:06:49 -0000, poldi42 wrote:
>--- In osFree@y..., "JMA" <mail@j...> wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:46:56 -0000, achimha wrote:
>>
>> If IBM can prove that these are stolen from them and tells me that would
>> procecute I will DEFINITLY think twice about supporting this. I
>might have
>> been fooled.
>>
>why have you been approached the first way? AFAIK anybody can upload
>to hobbes, nomatter what continent... what is your role in this, other
>than interest?
>
My initial contact was on a different matter with a person that happend
to be part of the dev. team.
I assume they choose me since I was better at english and was
VERY interested in a OS/2 opensource.
>> >Not looking at the legal aspects, it's also technical nonsense.
>> >OS/2's design is way outdated and its implementation is ugly. If
>> >there are really skilled developers with enthuiasm and time, then it
>> >should be done differently. A developer of ours has worked on a
>> >microkernel architecture with an OS/2 server (and Linux personality)
>> >for research purposes. You should rather go into this direction...
>> >
>> What I want is simply a way to keep using OS/2.
>>
>
>granted. you are not alone on this one.
>
>
>> The question is not if osFree the right way, the question is where are
>> the alternatives ?
>>
>I have to object. taking a active part in this can harm you as well as
>other OS/2 projects reputation. I have no prove this is illegal, but
>if it is (as I guess) and anybody cares enough about it (might not be
>right now) you should double-check your actions. especially if you are
>the author of suggested licenses.
>
It may harm me, yes. And I might be guilty of not wanting to drop OS/2, yes.
But other OS/2 projects, well if I removed OS/2 from my machine tomorrow
and unsubscribed from a few "nerd" groups I would never again hear the
name again - in my life !
So what "threat" would I be to OS/2 projects. To be quite frank 99.9% of
all computer users dont know what OS/2 is and 99% of the "computer buffs"
knows it was something that died many years ago. The other existing OS/2
project people could just treat me like TM.
Even if someone stole the whole current OS/2 source and released it on
public sites - who would care ?
Yes, it would be illegal, but 99.99% of all computer users would say:
"so what, what would anyone want this OStoo thingie for".
Sorry for ranting
Yes, osFree could be a pure ripoff of IBM's copyrighted work, and stealing
is no good. And dont want to say "what options do we have", but I will say
If some things not quite legal is needed to get us where we want to go, may
it not be worth it ?
Btw: for me the jury is out, some people say its a definite steal of IBM
property while other say no. Both side are equally sure and I dont want
to discuss this since it will not take anything forward.
I just want something to happen !
Is that illegal ??
Sincerely
JMA
Development and Consulting
John Martin , jma@...
==================================
Website: http://www.jma.se/
email: mail@...
Phone: 46-(0)70-6278410
==================================
Re: Part 1
#26 From: madodel@...
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 5:47 pm
Subject: Re: Re: 100% stolen - no doubt! madodel
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In <200202191356.g1JDuXf22582@...>, on 02/19/02 at 02:55
PM,
"JMA" <mail@...> said:
>Sorry for ranting
>Yes, osFree could be a pure ripoff of IBM's copyrighted work, and
>stealing is no good. And dont want to say "what options do we have", but
>I will say If some things not quite legal is needed to get us where we
>want to go, may it not be worth it ?
I agree that its tough to see IBM just trash OS/2, so there is no harm
done to IBM to steal their code. Or even the code that is licensed from
others in there, since most if not all of those have abandoned OS/2 as
well. But where do you draw the line? If you say its OK to steal OS/2
source, then is it OK to steal Smart Suite source? Since IBM is
eventually killing that as well after one or two more updates.
Once you walk down that path, its difficult to tell what's right or wrong
anymore. gates bought stolen code that belonged to Digital Research.
Look where that monster is today. I won't use microsoft products today
because I consider that company as ethically challenged(to put it midely).
So no, if its stolen code its not worth it. But I would like to see an
open source OS/2 alternative as well, so we don't have to be deadended by
IBM.
Mark
--
From the OS/2 Desktop of: Mark Dodel
Warpstock 2002, Come to the home of OS/2 - Austin, Texas
http://www.warpstock.org
For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE -
http://www.os2voice.org
"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of
private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State
itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an
individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano
Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 5:47 pm
Subject: Re: Re: 100% stolen - no doubt! madodel
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In <200202191356.g1JDuXf22582@...>, on 02/19/02 at 02:55
PM,
"JMA" <mail@...> said:
>Sorry for ranting
>Yes, osFree could be a pure ripoff of IBM's copyrighted work, and
>stealing is no good. And dont want to say "what options do we have", but
>I will say If some things not quite legal is needed to get us where we
>want to go, may it not be worth it ?
I agree that its tough to see IBM just trash OS/2, so there is no harm
done to IBM to steal their code. Or even the code that is licensed from
others in there, since most if not all of those have abandoned OS/2 as
well. But where do you draw the line? If you say its OK to steal OS/2
source, then is it OK to steal Smart Suite source? Since IBM is
eventually killing that as well after one or two more updates.
Once you walk down that path, its difficult to tell what's right or wrong
anymore. gates bought stolen code that belonged to Digital Research.
Look where that monster is today. I won't use microsoft products today
because I consider that company as ethically challenged(to put it midely).
So no, if its stolen code its not worth it. But I would like to see an
open source OS/2 alternative as well, so we don't have to be deadended by
IBM.
Mark
--
From the OS/2 Desktop of: Mark Dodel
Warpstock 2002, Come to the home of OS/2 - Austin, Texas
http://www.warpstock.org
For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE -
http://www.os2voice.org
"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of
private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State
itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an
individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano
Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938
Re: Part 1
#27 From: "JMA" <mail@...>
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:00 pm
Subject: Re: 100% stolen - no doubt! mailjmase
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:59:28 +0100, Kris Steenhaut wrote:
>
>
>JMA schreef:
>
>> On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:46:56 -0000, achimha wrote:
>>
>> If your developer has a solution why have I never heard about it ???
>Quite right!
>
>And talking about stealing, if you throw something away then you can't accuse
>anybody then for using it and using it as his property. Rex nullius. I know
>"Rex nullius" is quite another matter in Anglo-Saksian countries, but that's
>not of our concern.
>
Kris, I remember your discussions from the ecom list.
Nothing is illegal until its proven by a court of law that it is.
If I steal something but dont get convicted in court did I then steal ??
What the developers do may be possibly illegal but that is another thing.
Also, I'm unsure if it would apply to "leaked" stuff (assuming Achim is correct)
but in may country it is not illegal to make a copy of a music or software CD
to a friend. Moreover its quite unproven how a copy of a copy would be judged.
Also, if there is a leak (again assuming Achim is correct) the real crook is the
person that leaks the source. Its now up to the plaintif to prove that a) the
code
was leaked by someone that was not allowed to do it and b) that the person that
got the code was aware that the leak was not allowed.
Also, and this is interesting, Achim said he know what it was since he said
"I know its from the leaked code". This means that he most likely have seen that
allegded stolen code or might even posses it.
This means that he cannot ever develop an OS/2 compatible OS.
Compare to the Phenix cloning of the IBM BIOS, they had to do the cloning in
a strictly different company. This was what saved them from court.
But, lets drop this. Gimmie a opensource project that contains people that is
goint to work and not just talk - And I'll support it all I can.
Sincerely
JMA
Development and Consulting
John Martin , jma@...
==================================
Website: http://www.jma.se/
email: mail@...
Phone: 46-(0)70-6278410
==================================
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:00 pm
Subject: Re: 100% stolen - no doubt! mailjmase
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:59:28 +0100, Kris Steenhaut wrote:
>
>
>JMA schreef:
>
>> On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:46:56 -0000, achimha wrote:
>>
>> If your developer has a solution why have I never heard about it ???
>Quite right!
>
>And talking about stealing, if you throw something away then you can't accuse
>anybody then for using it and using it as his property. Rex nullius. I know
>"Rex nullius" is quite another matter in Anglo-Saksian countries, but that's
>not of our concern.
>
Kris, I remember your discussions from the ecom list.
Nothing is illegal until its proven by a court of law that it is.
If I steal something but dont get convicted in court did I then steal ??
What the developers do may be possibly illegal but that is another thing.
Also, I'm unsure if it would apply to "leaked" stuff (assuming Achim is correct)
but in may country it is not illegal to make a copy of a music or software CD
to a friend. Moreover its quite unproven how a copy of a copy would be judged.
Also, if there is a leak (again assuming Achim is correct) the real crook is the
person that leaks the source. Its now up to the plaintif to prove that a) the
code
was leaked by someone that was not allowed to do it and b) that the person that
got the code was aware that the leak was not allowed.
Also, and this is interesting, Achim said he know what it was since he said
"I know its from the leaked code". This means that he most likely have seen that
allegded stolen code or might even posses it.
This means that he cannot ever develop an OS/2 compatible OS.
Compare to the Phenix cloning of the IBM BIOS, they had to do the cloning in
a strictly different company. This was what saved them from court.
But, lets drop this. Gimmie a opensource project that contains people that is
goint to work and not just talk - And I'll support it all I can.
Sincerely
JMA
Development and Consulting
John Martin , jma@...
==================================
Website: http://www.jma.se/
email: mail@...
Phone: 46-(0)70-6278410
==================================
Re: Part 1
#28 From: "JMA" <mail@...>
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:08 pm
Subject: Re: New License mailjmase
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:59:12 +0100 (CET), ShadoW wrote:
>Hi,
>would it be legal if the developers changed the license
>agreement?
>Something like:
>Only owners of a valid license of OS/2 Warp 4, Server,
>... are allowed to use that package.
>Then perhaps the development can be legally continued
>until every piece of code owned by IBM is replaced by
>something free.
>
If its done with IBM source like some say, its not illegal until
proven by court. I doubt this has ever been tried.
But thats not the point, I want to participate in a project that
does an opensource OS/2. This release and this team may
not be the right team but lets unite and build what we want.
Sincerely
JMA
Development and Consulting
John Martin , jma@...
==================================
Website: http://www.jma.se/
email: mail@...
Phone: 46-(0)70-6278410
==================================
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:08 pm
Subject: Re: New License mailjmase
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:59:12 +0100 (CET), ShadoW wrote:
>Hi,
>would it be legal if the developers changed the license
>agreement?
>Something like:
>Only owners of a valid license of OS/2 Warp 4, Server,
>... are allowed to use that package.
>Then perhaps the development can be legally continued
>until every piece of code owned by IBM is replaced by
>something free.
>
If its done with IBM source like some say, its not illegal until
proven by court. I doubt this has ever been tried.
But thats not the point, I want to participate in a project that
does an opensource OS/2. This release and this team may
not be the right team but lets unite and build what we want.
Sincerely
JMA
Development and Consulting
John Martin , jma@...
==================================
Website: http://www.jma.se/
email: mail@...
Phone: 46-(0)70-6278410
==================================
Re: Part 1
#29 From: "JMA" <mail@...>
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:20 pm
Subject: Re: Re: 100% stolen - no doubt! mailjmase
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:47:08 -0500, madodel@... wrote:
>In <200202191356.g1JDuXf22582@...>, on 02/19/02 at 02:55
>PM,
> "JMA" <mail@...> said:
>
>>Sorry for ranting
>>Yes, osFree could be a pure ripoff of IBM's copyrighted work, and
>>stealing is no good. And dont want to say "what options do we have", but
>>I will say If some things not quite legal is needed to get us where we
>>want to go, may it not be worth it ?
>
>I agree that its tough to see IBM just trash OS/2, so there is no harm
>done to IBM to steal their code.
>Or even the code that is licensed from
>others in there, since most if not all of those have abandoned OS/2 as
>well. But where do you draw the line? If you say its OK to steal OS/2
>source, then is it OK to steal Smart Suite source? Since IBM is
>eventually killing that as well after one or two more updates.
>
Its not OK to steal IBM's code. But Achim himself (that started the "illegal"
thread)
did not call it stolen, he called it leaked.
Also, NO I would not touch the SmartSuite code. Its something IBM still sells
and makes money from.
If we believe Achim fully and the developers (I have to repeat, I'm NOT one of
the
developers) picked up leaked code what money would they rob IBM of.
Achim himself told us that the leaked code was old and bad and we all know
that IBM today sells MCP2/ACP2 not an old Warp 4.
I still hold the if, I dont take Achim for granted since he gave us reasons
to be biased(*) but even if he is 100% correct what damage would it do.
NO, this does not allow anyone to steal stuff, but should one overreact ?
>Once you walk down that path, its difficult to tell what's right or wrong
>anymore. gates bought stolen code that belonged to Digital Research.
>Look where that monster is today.
>
And who from MS is in jail ?
What you say here is that crime pays - Not a good point to make if the
(possibly) leaked code should be hands of !
>So no, if its stolen code its not worth it. But I would like to see an
>open source OS/2 alternative as well, so we don't have to be deadended by
>IBM.
>
Then lets work for this and not just talk. We could easily start by buildning
our own versions of the cmd line utils.
I'll do format.exe, you do chkdsk.exe.
I have no idea how to do kernel or driver programming but there are others.
Otherwise we are back to FreeOS - just endless talk
Sincerely
JMA
Development and Consulting
John Martin , jma@...
==================================
Website: http://www.jma.se/
email: mail@...
Phone: 46-(0)70-6278410
==================================
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:20 pm
Subject: Re: Re: 100% stolen - no doubt! mailjmase
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:47:08 -0500, madodel@... wrote:
>In <200202191356.g1JDuXf22582@...>, on 02/19/02 at 02:55
>PM,
> "JMA" <mail@...> said:
>
>>Sorry for ranting
>>Yes, osFree could be a pure ripoff of IBM's copyrighted work, and
>>stealing is no good. And dont want to say "what options do we have", but
>>I will say If some things not quite legal is needed to get us where we
>>want to go, may it not be worth it ?
>
>I agree that its tough to see IBM just trash OS/2, so there is no harm
>done to IBM to steal their code.
>Or even the code that is licensed from
>others in there, since most if not all of those have abandoned OS/2 as
>well. But where do you draw the line? If you say its OK to steal OS/2
>source, then is it OK to steal Smart Suite source? Since IBM is
>eventually killing that as well after one or two more updates.
>
Its not OK to steal IBM's code. But Achim himself (that started the "illegal"
thread)
did not call it stolen, he called it leaked.
Also, NO I would not touch the SmartSuite code. Its something IBM still sells
and makes money from.
If we believe Achim fully and the developers (I have to repeat, I'm NOT one of
the
developers) picked up leaked code what money would they rob IBM of.
Achim himself told us that the leaked code was old and bad and we all know
that IBM today sells MCP2/ACP2 not an old Warp 4.
I still hold the if, I dont take Achim for granted since he gave us reasons
to be biased(*) but even if he is 100% correct what damage would it do.
NO, this does not allow anyone to steal stuff, but should one overreact ?
>Once you walk down that path, its difficult to tell what's right or wrong
>anymore. gates bought stolen code that belonged to Digital Research.
>Look where that monster is today.
>
And who from MS is in jail ?
What you say here is that crime pays - Not a good point to make if the
(possibly) leaked code should be hands of !
>So no, if its stolen code its not worth it. But I would like to see an
>open source OS/2 alternative as well, so we don't have to be deadended by
>IBM.
>
Then lets work for this and not just talk. We could easily start by buildning
our own versions of the cmd line utils.
I'll do format.exe, you do chkdsk.exe.
I have no idea how to do kernel or driver programming but there are others.
Otherwise we are back to FreeOS - just endless talk
Sincerely
JMA
Development and Consulting
John Martin , jma@...
==================================
Website: http://www.jma.se/
email: mail@...
Phone: 46-(0)70-6278410
==================================
Re: Part 1
#30 From: "JMA" <mail@...>
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:24 pm
Subject: Re: (replying myself mailjmase
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:20:12 +0100, JMA wrote:
>
>I still hold the if, I dont take Achim for granted since he gave us reasons
>to be biased(*) but even if he is 100% correct what damage would it do.
>
As fast as I am to hack on someone I would like to complement someone.
Achim and Innotek has done wonders for the OS/2 community !
Dont think for one second I dont admire their work !
Sincerely
JMA
Development and Consulting
John Martin , jma@...
==================================
Website: http://www.jma.se/
email: mail@...
Phone: 46-(0)70-6278410
==================================
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:24 pm
Subject: Re: (replying myself mailjmase
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:20:12 +0100, JMA wrote:
>
>I still hold the if, I dont take Achim for granted since he gave us reasons
>to be biased(*) but even if he is 100% correct what damage would it do.
>
As fast as I am to hack on someone I would like to complement someone.
Achim and Innotek has done wonders for the OS/2 community !
Dont think for one second I dont admire their work !
Sincerely
JMA
Development and Consulting
John Martin , jma@...
==================================
Website: http://www.jma.se/
email: mail@...
Phone: 46-(0)70-6278410
==================================